In this episode we talk with Nanette Martin who is the Executive Director, Co-Founder and Lead Photographer of Shelter Me Photography. Nanette left a successful editorial photography career after witnessing how effective her images were in finding homes for some of the lost animals of Katrina. She has photographed close to 10,000 homeless animals close to 80 shelters across the country. Nanette began teaching shelter photography workshops to animal welfare workers and volunteers to improve the lighting and shooting skills of those who capture intake and adoption pictures. Nanette shares her experiences through 9/11, Hurricane Katrina and how to get the perfect picture of a shelter animal. To learn more about Nanette and Shelter Me Photography you can visit them on their website, https://www.sheltermephotography.org/ or on Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/ShelterMePhoto/.
Check out this episode!“Welcome to the Professionals and Animal Rescue podcast, where goal is to introduce you two amazing people helping animals and share how you can get involved with animal rescue. This’ll Podcast is probably sponsored by do bert dot com. Do Bert is a free website designed to connect volunteers with rescues and shelters and the only site that automates rescue really transport. Now on with our show in today’s program, we’re speaking within the Net. Martin Nanette is the executive director, co founder and lead photographer of Shelter Me photography. Nanette left a successful editorial photography career after witnessing how effective her images were in finding homes for some of the last animals of Katrina. She has since photograph close to 10,000 homeless animals and close to 80 different shelters across the country. In January of 2013 Danette began teaching shelter photography workshops to animal welfare workers and volunteers to improve the lighting and shooting skills of those who capture intake and adoption pictures. The responses, overwhelmingly positive, with reports of measurable increase, is an adoption rates and significant boost the morale of staff members. Hi Internet. Welcome to the program, right, Chris. So tell us a little bit about. You know where to start. Well, I I started my professional life as it is an environmental geologist, and I investigated and remediated hazardous waste for 12 years. And I had a really bad day at the office. When I close the door and I called the art institute. I said, Hey, I want to join. I forgot how you you go to college. I forgot about it. All starts and I thought, I’ll just call him and sign up and they said, Well, you have to go through an interview process. We don’t just take your money. And so I grabbed what I thought were my best pictures, and I went down to the art Institute and not quite sure if they just wanted my money, because I look at the quality of those pictures now, and I think, Wow, it was very good. But I absolutely loved and hated up. I spend an extra 60 hours a week at this rule printing and processing shooting. It was like oxygen. And before I graduated, I had a full page published in Life magazine. What? That’s a big picture. Yeah, it was from the Matthew Shepard funeral. Yes, it was Photography. Always been a passion of yours. Um, well, let me say this. My father died when I was eight and he was an architect. And he always had a camera in his and we always did family pictures of holidays. And he had all the lights and the any knew what he was doing. And he and I were best buddies, so I think there might be a genetic component. I’ve always wanted to be a photographer, but I had this thing in my head that, you know, photographers air just the luckiest people in the world because they get to do what they love to do for a living. And the rest of us, we have to do a job. Not necessarily what is our passion, but we have to do this job for 60 years or whatever until we retire. I guess still were 60. Not for 60. So in my head I had this feeling or this belief that I don’t know who put it there, that we work until we’re 60. And then we can retire and do things like photography and do things that we love. Andi have fun doing them. And I don’t know where that came from, but I just decided that I was gonna go back the school and I was gonna learn the science of photography and become a professional photographer. So I guess you could say that the idea was always there. But it wasn’t something that I thought was possible until I think the universe, because the universe has been playing a very strong role in my path. And it is only now that I can look back and see that that was what was happening, that I know that that’s true At the time. I was just following the current and it sent me back to school. And it was It was my passion. It is my passion. It’s everything. And it has taken precedence over personal relationships and just living a comfortable life. It means more to me than creature comforts and predictable financial future. So you went back to school. Now, How long ago was this? 1996. Okay, so you graduate from the art Institute. You’ve got all of this education and background now in photography. What’s next? Well, interestingly enough, there was a film crew that came into town after I graduated and approached the school asking for a videographer a student because they were doing a documentary on hate crimes. And Matthew Shepard was one of the crimes that were We’re gonna be discussed in this in this documentary, and the school suggest that they contact me because I had had that picture published in Life magazine. I actually then the first student to graduate from the institute with a 4.0 soo kyung lah di I I I was not that good of a student at Texas A and them. You mean like I said, this was just something that was in my blood. So they told him how I had excelled and that perhaps they wanted me on their team, and it turned out that that did work out. And I think in there still photographer we worked with Judy and Dennis Shepherds were a year. We also included Columbine and James Byrd’s dragging in Texas, and it was a It was a documentary called Journey to Hate Free Millennium and it was ice. I guess you could call it successful. It won a couple of awards, I think. Well, I got to meet Ellen. Did generous and and hash. Uh, when he opened in Los Angeles in that I started a pass for me, I did it, you know, we did the hate crimes and then 9 11 happened, and I saw that as a hate crime. But that’s not why I went. I went because I couldn’t believe it. It had happened. I couldn’t believe these buildings were reduced to rubble. I couldn’t believe what I saw on television. So I got in the car in left and it drove there and I took a student from the school. We made it in 30 hours from Denver to Hackensack, New Jersey. We were flying just 45 hours to get back. That’s the difference. But we stayed about a week, and then I went back because I was approached by a friend of mine who had a dog food company. She sent you to the site, the New York State Troopers. They passed on $250,000 with donated food because it didn’t have in it enough to keep their dogs going, and they were getting their food out of Canada. They weren’t happy with it, so she sent them hers and she’s actually local here to Denver, and they kept her food and she wanted a picture of it. Them arriving. And so I got a picture of that. And then I went back because I put together a collage to sell, to raise money, to pay for the food she was sending. I ended up going back four times and the Port Authority police would give me personal escorts down into the hole looking for this one guy I had photographed because I wanted to use his image in the in the lithograph in the collage and we could never find him. And every time I went back, they would take me like down to the bottom of the hole in November, right when they broke through through the bottom. It was it was extraordinary, even when the press wasn’t allowed in. Somehow I got in, so 9 11 was huge. That kept me busy until 2003 and then the cedar fire happened in San Diego, and I couldn’t believe what I was saying on TV. I think 2400 homes were burning 17. I think 17 people die. I just couldn’t believe it was happening in a major metropolitan area. So I drove out there, you know, is just like this hand is coming in and putting me where I need to be What? I need to be there. Because I landed right in the center of where the legal fight started regarding this fire and I went out there probably 12 times. I just decided I was gonna move out there and I would document it the recovery effort from there. Well, two years later, 2005 I was driving back to Denver for for an aerial shoot to help a friend out, stopped at my sister’s on the way. And she said, Oh, by the way, have you seen the storm coming into the gulf? Well, you know what Storm? She turned on the TV and literally the Gulf of Mexico was one big, swirly round cloud with an eye in the middle of it. And her, uh, Katrina was on its way. And so of course, I decided, Well, I’m not going back to California was gonna go from Denver and head to New Orleans. Something I left out was in 1999 ish 2000. The editor that had bought my picture at Life magazine. She moved over to People magazine when life downsized and I kept bugging her. Give me a chance, Give me a chance ants. And finally she called me one day and she says, All right, here’s your chance. Have been bugging me, Don’t f it up The New Yorker, Alright? And ironically, she sent me out on it on a job on a story for the Alley Foundation and the Alley Foundation. Got start started when a little girl was abducted, went missing. They brought in a bloodhound yogi and it took the dog. I don’t know how long it took the dog, but the dog took the smell from her bedroom out the door down the side, walk down the street down the highway out into a field and found her body. And had they brought you again two days earlier, they say she would have been found alive. But the grandparents started a foundation to bring in blood, hand us donated blood hounds, trained them and give them out. The police did departments, so my work with People magazine actually started with darks and rescuing. So when I was heading to New Orleans I called my editor and I said, Hey, I’m going down. Can use means is that no, we’ve got everybody in place. Thanks, but no thanks. Well, on Wednesday she called me and she said, Look, I need you to hook up with the National Guard coming out of Houston. I can’t get any of my people out of the city. And so that started a seven day tour with the National Guard, where I had five assignments, five rescues. I was supposed to catch her a helicopter rescue a boat rescue. Uh, in fact, I don’t even remember all five because I didn’t get any. We were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Consistently, we kept finding Dogg’s treading water for their lives or or, you know, high centered on a truck somewhere in water all around them, or in some areas. It was over eight feet deep, and they tried to rescue a couple of them. But there were some that wouldn’t rescue, and I didn’t know anything about animal rescue at that time. I have been in one shelter my whole life. I was probably six. Maybe it was in Houston. It was in the sixties. It was such a traumatic experience for May. I swore I would never go into another shelter the rest of my life, and I have to laugh at the irony. This point just crashed in my life now, but, um, so I didn’t know anything about bullies. I didn’t know there was a liability, and there were some bullies that where they were desperate to be rescued and they wouldn’t even try because he said, If we bring them in the boat, it’s a liability Having you in the boat and your assistant, well, I mentioned my work as environmental geologists because I had worked on some of the most contaminated sites on the planet. But I had never seen water as nasty as what I was floating in because I considered for a minute to get out of the boat and so that they could get the dogs and bring them in. But I knew that would not be a good idea because I just had never seen anything so toxic. So I wrote down where I saw all these dogs turned that in to the shelter. Lamar Dixon, I said, Please go get these dogs about a month later, I got three phone calls and three days asking me if I have my dog’s back. And finally I said, Look, what is going on? Why Why are you triplicate ing efforts? And, well, it’s just crazy Or people are coming from all over the world. They’re setting up camps. There’s no central means of communication. Things were just getting complicated. And I said, Well, what can I do as a photographer? And they said, You can come back and document the St Bernard Parish Animal Massacre. What massacre? On the east side of New Orleans and Shell met, people evacuated through some schools. The water out there got 20 feet deep. The schools had 33 stories. They could get up above the water they brought their pets with, Um, after a few days, the sheriff came in and a gunpoint told them, You’re coming with us. Leave your pets. Rescue will come for them. They wrote their names, their phone numbers on the wall. Someone wrote, you know, Please find my dog a good home. Someone wrote, you know, this is my wow. These are her puppies. Uh, there was a golden retriever and puppies. There was a Pomeranian. I’m sure there were some police, but that that was not that was not the majority. And someone wrote, Please don’t shoot my dog. Well, based on ballistics, it was a sheriff’s deputy that went in and used the cord from the blinds to tie them up. Be blindfolded them. They cornered them. You shot them in the stomachs and left them to die horribly painful deaths. And, uh, no one was ever indicted. The sheriff wouldn’t even post pictures of who was on duty that day so that people could point to them and say, That’s him. Or there was a rescue that went down and picked up the bodies. Pasado safe haven out of Seattle. It’s six people in the rescue. Five went down, picked up the bodies to do necropsies on them. One of the rescuers committed suicide. After that, I went into one of those schools, and if there’s anything that the fuel’s what I do, it is the experience of going into Beauregard Middle School and seeing what was left behind. I didn’t see the bodies, but I saw what was left behind. I saw the bullet holes in the walls. I saw the messages on both. Sorry. It was It was the worst, most inhumane thing I’ve ever seen. And that was my introduction into animal rescue. It was, uh, that was the low point, but it was very soon followed by the high point. And I learned I learned how bad it can get for rescuers. And then I learned how they survive. And they survived by hanging on to the saves. And there was a dog in a Mercedes, and she was a black pit bull. And she escaped. And a woman found her 59 days after Katrina. It she had been without food and water, and she survived. And she was in the gymnasium and she heard her crying, and she broke in and got her and nursed her back to health and reunited her with her family the day they were reunited. I was there, but I was also there with every news agency you can imagine filming this event. And while Mercedes had been missing the couple and it was a young couple, they’d had a baby. So I got to see Mercedes, meet this infant for the first time and see her get reunited with with the couple, and it helped, you know it helped. But that that is the reason I do. What I do is because the sort of eternal internal flame that got lit that day that I realized what incredible, courageous warriors that are out there rescuing and caring for family members, four legged, furry family members that deserve so much better than what they’re being dished out. For whatever reason, this idea that dogs and cats are property and treated as such in parts of the United States, I don’t know where that started. I don’t know what why it continues, but this idea that we can use them to make money, to breed into silent. For every backyard birth, there is a death in a shelter. And there’s no there are no bad animals in shelters. I have photographed over 10,000 of shelter pets. I have never photographed a bad animal. I’ve never photographed one that could not be worked with and helped they get off track because of what we do to them. We’re their skirts. Were there Stuart’s. We’re responsible. We domesticated them. It’s up to us as a species to take care of him in shelters today are overflowing. One I just spoke with this morning yesterday they put 60 cats down yesterday. 60 cats, You know, you feel a room with 60 cats and think about how much death that is, how much joy that could have been. But because somebody thinks it’s a good idea to let their cat have kittens and sell them. What is a life worth? What is the What is the going rate for a life for joy, For somebody to have a companion. What is that worth? $20 to somebody you know. What is it doing to the people in those shelters that are the ones that are having to put the 60 cats down? I’m sorry, but if you think that there’s somebody that enjoys euthanizing animals, you’re dead wrong. These people are suffering. The animals are suffering. The people are suffering. So what is my role? I mean, I’ve been given a gift that I I’m able to go into a shelter and I’m able to photograph these pets and I can connect with them in a matter of seconds and I can capture I could take the shelter out of them without taking them out of the shelter so that people can see past the bars and past the cages and past the poop in the corner in the P in put puddles and the smell and the noise. And they can just see the Jewell that I see that I know is there. And then go and get that and I will go and get the dog and take him home and love him and cherish him. There’s just too much death. There is too much. There’s too much killing. There’s too many of them and we can control that. This is not This is not, ah, market, these air lives. These were beating hearts, and I like to tell my classes when it teach that we live in a society where I like the word Brazilians. I think it’s technically, I think it’s accurate because we spend zillions of dollars on marketing for things that we don’t need. Somebody invent stuff, convinces people with that they need it, but it’s really just so they could make some money. Here we have a community that has a products, so to speak, with a beating heart and not a penny to spend on marketing. There’s a there’s an expiration date on these animals, and sometimes it’s only a few hours. By the time I get I photographed him, I I had a shelter in Texas. I got there, too, and there was 10 on the list to be put down at 53 hours to photograph these dogs. And just because I showed up because I photographed them, that gave them a stay of execution, so to speak, for a day to see if the pictures would work and nine out of 10 got out. She never been such an amazing story. You’ve had enough and the journey to get you to where you are now. So So what made you decide that you need to doom or and that you need to travel the country and teach people how to photograph. The last few years, I have not been as active as I would like. It’s been eating me up the last 23 years that I’ve not been able to do as much as I would like. Purina has been our sponsor since 2013 and they have literally kept us alive. We have a contract with, um, they’re very supportive. They provide all of the lighting, the equipment that I get to donate to shelters. They would send me out a couple of times a year to shelters to teach workshops. I never felt like I was enough. The need is so great, you goto one shelter and there are three other ones in that community that need help. So says my father died. I really haven’t felt like I had a home. I’ve just been moving, like, every year, and I got tired of it, so I thought, Well, this last time, I moved like, I’m not gonna go run another place. I’m just gonna I’m gonna buy an RV, and I’m going to go on the road and I’m gonna take my house with me, And I’m gonna go to as many shelters as I can until I die, and literally or until I just physically can’t do this anymore. So we put up a post on Facebook. We said, you know, does your shelter want a workshop? Let us know we have about 40 respond. And from that 40 they recommended another 30 that we contact. So I contact about 70 75 shelters. I don’t really know. We probably got 50 of them to commit. So, you know, we started in Arizona at a shelter that Purina wanted us to go through. But what’s turning what has happened is that with every shelter we go to, there’s about three. I end up adding on, so at this point, we’re three times where the three times the shelters and we’re behind. But we don’t want to turn anybody down. It’s a huge effort. We don’t have enough people where we need, like a 10 person team. There’s two of us making it happen. The need is just so great. It’s driving. It’s the fuel. It is driving the motivation it sze, providing the energy to keep doing this. Every shelter I go to the workers of volunteers. They are so hungry for the knowledge and the skills, because if you think about it, this is not just helping the animals, but it’s giving the people who care for them. A tool is giving them some control over the fate of the animals that are in their care, so that when they drive home at night, they don’t have this, cross their fingers and kneel at their bedside and pray that these animals find a home. They actually can do something to make that happen, and for anybody that doesn’t believe or doesn’t understand the power of a photograph when it comes to the life of a shelter. Pets, I have about 36 that I know of that, I was told we had the needle in one hand and your picture in the other, and we put the needle down because we simply could not kill that animal. After looking into its eyes and to go one step further, a veterinarian at a New York shelter worked at the shelter and met all the dogs, treated the dog, saw the dogs every day, then want one of the dogs really saw our picture of one of the dogs. And he adopted the dog that he had already met, didn’t want until I show the picture and then he wanted and we adopted it. So the power of an image absolutely can save a life. So when you’re behind the lens in the net, how do you How do you bring out the personality and how do you bring out that special picture in the animal gonna want to say, I don’t know, But the truth is prize. Taking a lot of practice. There’s an intuition. You have to. You have to kind of have to look at the animal and get a feel for the state it’s in. If it’s a perfectly crazy dog, that is, only it seems happy seems well balanced. You know, I’ve got special noises for that dog. If it’s a scared dog, I don’t use noise, noise will scare them even more. You can do things that that cause more problems for yourself. It’s It’s a matter of finding a way to connect with the animal, using noise, using movement. I teach my class. There’s three things you gotta have. You gotta have patients. You gotta have a sense of humor. You gotta have a camera. If you don’t have patience or a sense of humor, you don’t need the camera. Just go home. Just don’t do it. This is such a unique, specialized field photography. It deserves its own place as a discipline separate from pat photography. I know pat photographers that do it for living that could not go into a shelter and be successful because the challenges are so unique and so different, and so the extreme. There’s the burden of capturing an image that could save a life, having that on your plate and getting it processed in time and turned around. So what do you recommend to somebody this listening that says, You know you are so inspiring. I want to do it. You do know that. Where did you start? Be great If you could come to one of our workshops with charge a whopping $25. You learn about a semester’s worth of photography. If you can’t make it to a workshop. Things I recommend one. We always use the blue background. It doesn’t clash with any color for it. It’s kind of a calming color and makes the animal pop. If you don’t know a whole lot about photography, it’s a forgiving color. I started out using a natural background. I get a lot of resistance from train. Photographers were going to use natural Well, the thing is, we take the leash out of the picture leap, taking the leash out, Does something psychological. You know I won’t shoot bars. I won’t shoot cages. I don’t want I don’t anything that picture that’s going to suggest that the animal needs to be restrained. So keep your picture clean. Keep the background clean. Don’t junk it up. Don’t dress your dog up. Don’t put a hat on it. Don’t put a bow on it. There’s there are people out there that get offended by that, and they’re not even gonna look at your pictures. Now, why would you wanna offend somebody that might take that dog home out the front door, and instead it has to go out the back door. So don’t rush dogs up, shoot from eye level. She’s straight across, get down low, put them on a I use ah, adjustable height table two feet by four feet. And I put the short end towards May so that they have to stand lined up looking at me. I use a blue rubber mat so that the foreground is this clean. And I let the dog and cat sell themselves and I don’t put props. Only use props. I feel like if somebody’s gonna adopt an animal because they had a hat on or because they had a profit, that’s the wrong reason. Adopt an animal. I want them to connect. I have an emotional reaction when they look at the picture. Well, for that that happened. There’s only one feature on on an animal. It’s gonna generate an emotional reaction. And that’s the eyes. So the eyes have gotta be looking into the lens because if they’re looking in the lens, then they’re looking at the person looking at the picture and that some, If there’s a if there’s gonna be a connection, that’s where it’s gonna happen through the eyes to the heart. People have taken our pictures into the shelter, showing the pictures. Say, I want this dark we like. Don’t you want to meet the dog? No. Want to stuff? Well, how about you meet the dogs? This is my dog. My dog. Remember that one? Go home, my dog. Well, of course they make a meet the dog. But they’ve already made of the mind because they had that connection. You get down low issue straight across to keep it clean. You feel the frame with the animal. A lot of the amateur photographers are. They don’t think to turn the camera off vertically, but you turn the camera vertically. You cut out the background and you feel the friend with the pack. So you wanna fill your friend with information about the pet? You’re not selling backdrops you’re adopting on animals. What else you want to connect with that? You gotta come up with a way to make that pet look into your lens. So everything you do has to happen from behind the lens. A dog is gonna look where the noise comes from. And so I say when you start off, you have certain cards you can play to get that dog to do that. My first card I play is usually a noise that comes out of my mouth because my mouth is right behind the lens conveniently located. If that doesn’t work, I’ll grab a squeaker and squeak it underneath my lens. Everything happens around the lens that doesn’t work. Then I’ve got to ask somebody to come and help me when I start off. I don’t want anybody else in front of that dog. This is a This is like a game of, of controlling what you can control. And you could do that. You can start. You can increase your odds of becoming successful. Dog’s gonna be looking at every new thing that happens out in front of him. So if I need somebody to help me, that’s something that’s something new. They walk out dogs looking at them. They come in, they squat down behind me. I’m ready to shoot. I got my camera on the dog with the dogs following that person. They squat down. He’s looking right into my lens. At that point, I could get that picture, you know, then there’s a myriad of things we’re gonna have a person do. Everything they do, though, is going to come back to that point behind the lens. They’re going to draw the attention to the lens that is so important. I can’t. I really can’t emphasize how important that is to have that animal looking into your lens because people don’t connect with ears, they don’t connect with tails, and I’ll connect with spots. They connect with eyes and for that animal to share its energy and spirit that comes through the eyes. No, um, really, just an and control the traffic that’s around your side. There are so many things that can make this difficult, and my job is not just to make it easier not just to teach them tools that work and what I teach works, because if it didn’t work, I left it behind. But it’s also to motivate them to make him want to do it, and it’s gotta be successful in order for them to keep doing it. There’s nobody wants to go put that kind of an effort in and get crappy pictures, right? So as you embark on your 2017 tour, it just sounds like you’re gonna be leaving here in the next week or so. What’s your hope? What’s your What’s your mission? It’s multi level. The ultimate mission is to change the way society perceived shelter prints when 25% of the animals in shelters air purebreds. If you’ve gotta have a pure bred, you could still shop at a shelter and get one. Uh, it’s just to change the horizon for shelter, pissed. And really, if we’re gonna really make a lasting change, we do have to change the way people think. Because even 9 11 I saw a change in the way people behaved for a couple months, but then it went back. It wasn’t enough to change like a real change. So it’s a It’s a big challenge to try to change the way society thinks, but it can be done, and photography is a very powerful tool in making that happen just by showing the true nature of these animals. But it’s not just the public that we have to change their thought. Process shelters, management, you know, we get, we offer a free service, We have shelters that don’t accept it. And I said, We got a photographer week. We don’t hurt their feelings. I’m sorry, but your photographer he’s not doing a good job and lives are being lost as a result. So let’s, well, let’s just come in and help. Little is, you know, So we got a tweak. The way management thinks about photography, it’s a very powerful tool, you know, they send their people to training, they pay for that training, and it doesn’t necessarily have a direct effect on adoptions. Whereas we come in, you’re gonna see your guest an immediate improvement. But there’s no money for that. So we’re struggling. We need to change the mindset of the shelter manager, the public, educate the public, increase adoptions, you know, get the animals out of the shelters reduce the need for shelters. I would love it. One day I woke up and I don’t have a job I don’t need for me, please working out of a job but also to re elected, to emphasize with shelter management that they don’t operate in a bubble that every marginal picture of a shoulder pit affects the entire shelter community. Every shelter Pet needs to have great pictures up online. We don’t need any bad pictures because the Internet reduces geographical distances. So somebody that’s in in, ah, backwards of Louisiana, where they’re at a shelter with an 85% kill rate, 85% of the animals are not gonna leave that shelter at the front door. They click in a fraction of a second. They can see Portland, Oregon, where they have a 99% live release rate. But if Portland doesn’t have great pictures of shelter pets, this person doesn’t know that they have a great progressive community. Doesn’t matter. They just see crappy pictures of shelter pets. So they think, well, juice, shelter, pets were just crapping all over the place. I’m gonna go buy mine, you know it’s Ah, everybody’s connected. The network cannot be severed, and animals there in one location one day get transported across the country the next. So you cannot say that. Well, you know we want. That’s why we travel. Because the animals in Colorado didn’t necessarily start here. It came from New Mexico that came from Kansas. They came from Missouri. When we have a very progressive community here, they will get adopted out most of the shelters. But we even have our shelters that are blighted that are really struggling, that have a very high feel. So, you know, I don’t know. There’s one mission, one mission save lives. That’s good. That’s a really good mission. Is there anything else than that you wanted to share with everybody before we close out? I don’t know. You know, treat him. Better get your get your pets spayed and neutered. You know, I get the I get the argument that God didn’t God didn’t intend for my male dog toe live like that. There’s a neutered male. Well, I can promise you that God didn’t intend for the dogs that are gonna be put down to live the life. They’re gonna live because you did not get your dog fixed. You’ve got to think outside of the bubble, you gotta think you’ve got to think about the other ones that are affected. And for everyone that’s born in a backyard, there’s one being put down in a shelter, and I probably I’m gonna have to look into its eyes and say a little prayer and hope that somebody good finds him. You know, absolutely. We can do border where they’re Stuart’s. We could do better. Very true. Well, thank you, Nanette. I appreciate you coming and sharing your story and your tips. And we look forward to the connecting with you when you’re back in Denver after this trip. Well, thanks so much for doing this, Chris. Every little bit helps. Every little bit helps, and this is not a little bit. This is a big bit. So thank you for what you’re doing. Thanks for tuning into today’s podcast. If you’re not already a member, joined the Air P A. To take advantage of all the resources we have to offer. And don’t forget to sign up with do bert dot com. It’s free and helps automate the most difficult tasks in animal rescue”